All the data I've seen points to a strong correlation between organic traffic growth and the frequency with which companies blog, so I was fascinated to learn how Stephen O'Connor and Kaitlyn Petro were able to reduce the number of blogs they published while dramatically growing organic website traffic for Advanced Data Systems Corporation.
Stephen - who is the Director of Digital Marketing for ADSC - and Kaitlyn - a Strategist with IMPACT who works with Stephen on the company's marketing, break down some of the key lessons they've learned throughout the five years they've worked together.
Listen to the episode here, or read the transcript (below), to learn how Stephen and Kaitlyn grew ADSC's website traffic while reducing the number of blogs they published.
Here’s what Stephen, Kaitlyn and I discussed on this week’s show:
Kathleen Booth (host): Welcome to the Inbound Success Podcast. My name is Kathleen Booth, and today I'm really excited to have with me as my guests Stephen O'Connor and Kaitlyn Petro. Before we get started, I have to give one caveat, which is that at least two of the three of us are suffering from fall allergies, or colds, or something like that, so you're probably going to hear us sniffling, or coughing, or sneezing, or something, and we're just going to roll with it. With that, I'm going to have each of them tell you a little bit about themselves. Stephen, let's start with you. Tell us about yourself, your company?
Stephen O'Connor (guest): Sure, it's a pleasure to be here. Thanks for inviting me. I'm Stephen O'Connor, I'm Director of Digital Marketing at Advanced Data Systems. We've been providing healthcare automation solutions since 1977, so that's 40 years. We offer a wide range of products, including electronic health records software and practice management software, that are good for over 25 specialties. We also provide MedicsRCM, which is available for customers who would like to outsource their revenue cycle management services. And finally, we do radiology information systems, which is specifically for radiology and imaging centers. Our services and products are available in both cloud and client server, and they can be implemented as a single unified solution or sold separately as needed by the customer. We have thousands of providers and system users nationally.
Kathleen: Great. And where can we find Advanced Data Systems on the internet?
Kathleen:All right, terrific, and I'll put that into the show notes for anybody who wants to click through and check out the site. Thank you, Stephen. Kaitlyn, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Kaitlyn Petro (guest): Yes. So, as Kathleen mentioned, I'm one of the two people who's sick, so I apologize if I sound a little bit congested here, but I'm Kaitlyn Petro. I am a strategist here at IMPACT. I've been here for just over four years now. I believe I hit my four-year anniversary October 30th, so it's been a little while. And as a strategist here, my main responsibilities include working with a handful of clients, Stephen included, to help identify their marketing and business goals, and then create strategic plans to achieve those goals while also helping with the implementation side of things as well.
Kathleen:Great. Well, one of the reasons I was particularly excited about this interview is, this is the first episode I've had where I'm interviewing more than one person, so it's our first trifecta if you will, and also, it is the first time I've interviewed two people who form, essentially, an agency-client relationship. So, I've interviewed agency people, and I've interviewed in-house marketers, but never the two at once, and so I'm really excited to dig in a little bit to that relationship, and how it has worked, and how you two have worked together to get really great inbound results. With that, I want to start by rewinding the clock and going back to when, Stephen, you first started working with IMPACT. What led you to hire an agency? When was that? How long ago was it that you started working with the agency, and what were your goals?
Stephen:I started working here in 2010, and although we have approximately 250 employees, it's a very small marketing department, so we really needed to get some content. So, in 2012 I got the okay to look for somebody to help us with content marketing, so I was on the websites, and one of the companies that I would always look for with inbound marketing information and stuff like that was, I would keep coming across IMPACT. I really loved the way they did their design and the way they did their branding, and the content they provided was very helpful to me, so when the time came to look for a company to work with, I contacted IMPACT. It was, I think, in May 2012, so we've been a client for over five years.
Kathleen:Kaitlyn, when did you start working with Stephen?
Kaitlyn: I joined IMPACT in October of 2013 as a junior account manager, and I was put on the account right away. I remember specifically, and I don't even know if Stephen knows this, but I remember I did not enjoy working with ADS, and it wasn't because of the people. It was because I had no idea what healthcare automation systems were, and it was a huge learning curve for a 22-year-old out of college to understand what electronic health records was and understand that industry, so I struggled a little bit when I first started working with them. Obviously that's not the case anymore. I've actually been working with ADS and with Stephen since my first day here at IMPACT.
Kathleen: I think it would be interesting to start by talking about who the company's audience is because, obviously, on this podcast, we try to focus in on campaigns and what worked and what didn't, and so much of that has to do with who the audience is that you're targeting. So, Stephen, maybe you could just give us a high-level overview of, who is a good lead for ADS?
Stephen:We have various products. We have the electronic health records and practice management software, which is really good for medical practices. Within the medical practices, as I stated, we do over 25 specialties, and that also includes laboratories, addiction treatment centers, and anaesthesiology. But with the radiology software, there's also imaging centers. The practice management could also be sold to billing companies, so there's various target markets for us, and as far as the sizes, there's a lot of solo practices, but our particular product is very good for more the group practice. We really like the more enterprise health systems and group practices, so that's sort of where we target.
Kathleen:Great. And from my conversations with the two of you, it sounds like the experience that ADS has had is a great lesson in why the fundamentals of inbound marketing work, and also why attention to detail is so important in the process. So, understanding who that audience is, it would be great, again, if we could go backwards in time and talk about, at a really high level, what did you do? What were the key marketing activities that were carried out for the company, and what has been the life cycle of this engagement?
Kaitlyn:When I first started, Stephen said lead generation was their main goal. What did that mean back then? We might not have necessarily known. Inbound marketing was a newer concept at the time, and people were just hearing of HubSpot and just trying those inbound tactics out. So, a lot of what we did back then for ADS was creating blogs just to create blogs because it was well known that inbound marketing was all about creating content, and you needed to blog in order to be found. A lot of social media posting, so Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, Google+ at the time as well, trying to make sure that the brand was well known or was easy to be found, so, creating that brand awareness. Creating webinars, so, helping ADS out with some webinar strategies, as well as promotion. Am I missing anything, Stephen? I think that was pretty much the gist of it there. It was a lot of basic inbound tactics.
Kaitlyn:Some HubSpot maintenance as well.
Stephen:Yes. A lot of emails, webinars.
Kaitlyn:Yeah, a lot of emails to people - this is a secret - but people that we probably weren't supposed to be emailing, really trying to figure out what inbound marketing was and how was the best way to do it.
Kathleen:It sounds like it was very focused on top of the funnel, traffic generation, and getting those initial leads in the door at the time. Is that correct?
Kaitlyn:Yeah. It was a lot of focus on increasing traffic or generating traffic in general and then making sure that that traffic was turning into leads, whatever way that was that we could get them to convert.
Kathleen:Okay. Now, you shared with me something interesting, which was that in 2014, Stephen, or the folks at ADS, came to you and said they wanted to stop blogging. Stephen, do you remember why you wanted to do that? Because this is something I hear from a lot of people, and I think this is going to really resonate.
Stephen:Yeah. In 2014, it was something to do with the content where there were some issues with that, so they wanted to put a hold on it, and it ended up, I think we had stopped blogging for a few months.
Kaitlyn:Yeah, I think it was between three to six months, maybe.
Kathleen:And, you know, it's funny because I talk to a lot of marketers, and within the agency-client relationship I do hear a lot of companies say, "Wow, blogging is taking so much time. Is it really worth it? What are we really getting from our blog?" And there are a lot of people that question whether that investment is worthwhile, so I always think it's fascinating to look at cases like this where companies do stop for a while. They've been doing it, they have a track record of doing it, and so all they know are the results they're getting when they're doing it, and then they stop, and that's an opportunity to see, does anything change if we stop? Because if it doesn't, then, sure, blogging probably isn't worthwhile, but if it does, that gives you a sense of what the added value is. So, Kaitlyn, maybe you could speak to what happened when they stopped.
Kaitlyn:Today I would have never said yes to letting them stop blogging. I was there for about three months at the time, and again, we were trying to figure out what worked and what didn't work. We saw, almost immediately, a dramatic decrease in traffic, I think by around, maybe, 3,000 visits if not more per month.
Kathleen:What percentage of the overall traffic did that represent?
Kaitlyn:About, maybe, a third if not a little bit more.
Kaitlyn:It was a pretty big decrease, and we also noticed that a lot of the visitors that were coming to the website were a lot less qualified than we were seeing before.
Kathleen:Interesting. Yeah. I mean, it definitely speaks volumes about the effectiveness of blogging, which is a good thing because when you do blog, you are investing a substantial amount of time, so you want to know that it's worth it, right, that it's producing results. So you stopped for a little while, and then you started up again. Let's focus on what you two have been doing for the company's marketing since the blog restarted. Did you change the approach at all in terms of what you were doing with the blog, and what's the frequency of blogging, and what have the results been?
Kaitlyn:Once we started back up again, and I'm trying to dig back into my memory, we didn't change the way that we blogged. We just continued to blog. It brought the traffic back up. We knew that, obviously, that was something that we needed to do. It was working, and we saw the decrease. It was very well known that we needed to continue to blog, and it was easy to convince everybody on that side after seeing the big impact it had. I don't really think that we put a strategic spin on blogging or content creation until maybe a couple years ago.
And what I mean by strategic spin is, instead of just outsourcing topics to a writer and saying, "Please write about this so I can put it on the blog, because I know we're supposed to be blogging, but I don't really know why except for the fact that we're getting traffic," we actually sat down and said, for every single one of these blogs, if we want the most value out of them, we need to have a strategic plan behind this blog and a goal for each blog. So, around two years ago, we started to dive into every single topic where we actually thoroughly outlined each topic.
The title of the blog is very specific to keywords that we're trying to rank for at the time. We refresh our keyword report every quarter to make sure that we're not focusing on thousands of keywords all at once, but maybe a little bit more targeted towards around 20 to 25 keywords per quarter, and we're paying attention to which keywords or which things people are actually searching for and looking for, so that when they do look for it, ADS is the top of mind, and with that we've created a lot of blogs that have done very, very well recently.
And, it's something that I always like to tell the story about is, back in 2014 we were producing around 13 blogs per month, and I think organic traffic really didn't account for too much of their traffic, and now we're only producing around four blogs per month, but they have all the strategic value behind them, and their organic traffic actually counts for almost 80% of their total traffic per month now.
Kathleen:Wow. That's amazing.
Kaitlyn:Yeah. So, if people think that blogging is taking up too much time, you might not be doing it right. You might not be doing it the most efficient way possible, so I would challenge them to really put some strategy behind it because if we went from 13 blogs to four blogs, which it takes, you know, a third of the time, if that, and we're getting probably quadruple the results, it's definitely worth a sit-down to take a look at what you're doing currently.
Kathleen:So, Stephen, I have to ask you, because one of the questions I get all the time from companies that are considering engaging an agency to do their marketing, especially companies in the technology or SaaS sector like you are, is, "How can an agency possibly create content for me? What we do is different. What we do is highly technical." I would love to understand from your perspective, how has the content creation process worked? How much involvement do you and your team need to have, and have you felt like we've been able to create content that is adequate for your needs? I'd love to just get your perspective on that entire topic.
Stephen:We get involved where we need to get involved. If it's a highly technical blog article, we have the internal resources to help with that, but for the most part, we've been working with IMPACT for so long now that they're pretty much able to handle a majority of the blog articles that we have. Kaitlyn really manages the process, and she's just been phenomenal with the blogging, so she could probably talk a little bit more about the process.
Kaitlyn:Like I mentioned before, I struggled a little bit with understanding the industry. Obviously now, working with you for four years, it's become a little bit easier to understand, especially with a lot of the research that I do, a lot of the competitor analysis, and with all of the content that we've been producing, it gets easier to produce. A lot of the topics for the blogs that I do facilitate are a little bit more general, but that's not a horrible thing because we're finding that some of the people that we're targeting are searching for more general information, and it's not so general that it doesn't give any value.
The outlines that I'm creating and the content that I'm asking the writers to put together are based off of industry websites and resources, and they have facts and statistics in them that other doctors or physicians or whoever we're targeting are looking to find. When it does come down to something that has to be a little bit more in-depth, that might not be my best knowledge or expertise, that's when I get Stephen or his team involved a little bit more. And sometimes all that includes is, really, them looking at an article and giving some feedback and giving some edits, or sometimes it might be them writing an ebook or a longer offer that we might not outsource because it's better if it's done in-house.
Kathleen:That makes sense. So, really, it's about kind of being picky and using your resource where you need it the most. Tell me about some of the more successful blogs that have been created for the company. Are there particular blogs that perform really well, and what does that performance look like, and why do you think they are so popular?
Kaitlyn:We have one blog ... I actually believe it was written before I started working with ADS, but it's since been rewritten, I think three or four times. It's called The Pros and Cons of Electronic Health Records, and that is actually the highest traffic-driving page on their website, over the homepage, believe it or not.
Kaitlyn:Yes. And that remains to this day very true. So, what we do with that one and other blogs that are driving that high of traffic is we love to update them. Like I said, it's been updated at least three or four times since it's been written to make sure that all of the information is relevant. So, we've found that a lot of those "Pros and Cons" blogs work very well, especially when someone is trying to decide if they want to buy something as serious, or expensive, or a big investment, I guess, as software. I've also found that list articles work well.
So, a recent article that we've done that's working really well is the Top Healthcare Events and Conferences of 2017. We just wrote a 2018 one as well, so we have gotten that one out there, and that one's showing some pretty great traffic. We've also written another list article that's doing great: 15 Healthcare Podcasts You Need To Listen To. So, it just shows that you don't have to be super-technical or specific to what you're trying to sell to get the right audience to your website, right? Because we don't do podcasts or things like that, but that's one of the highest traffic-driving blogs on our blog, or on our website. The key there is to make sure that there is a relevant conversion point, or a relevant next step for that person, and if they're qualified to be on your website, they will convert.
Kathleen:You know, it's interesting that you say that because I've done a couple of other interviews, one very notable one was with Stephanie Casstevens, and there are a few others as well, where people experience the exact same thing. In fact, it was exactly when they stopped talking about their product in their blog, and they started broadening the topics to include some of the more general points that their audience was facing, that they got the most traction, and it's interesting to see how people, it almost goes against their instinct. As a marketer, your job is to promote a product or a service, and so it's hard, I think, at times, to take a step back and say, "We're not going to talk about our product or service at all. We're going to talk about this totally other thing, in this case podcasting, but it's going to bring traffic."
Stephen, how did you feel about, initially, doing content that had nothing to do with the products and the services that you sell?
Stephen:Actually, I loved it. They're my favorite articles on the blog. I, personally, like them just because I know ... I just find them interesting, and I think there's a lot of competitors and there are a lot of sites that have the real technical stuff, and it's sort of different. We have articles that our audience would be interested in. There's a lot on efficiency in office waiting rooms and stuff that medical practices would really be interested in that has nothing to do, in some cases, with our products. But, yeah, I just find these articles are my favorites, and I know people are interested in them.
Kathleen:Yeah, it's funny. When I did that interview with Stephanie, actually, the company that she was marketing sells medical waste disposal solutions for practices, and their best-performing offer was a patient no-show policy template, so, very similar target audience to yours, and it was as soon as they stopped talking about medical waste disposal — because really, who is out there Googling that? — they started to see traction. But, I love that you said you like those blogs because you find them interesting because that's exactly ... I think that speaks to why they work. You are in the medical profession. You're more interested in healthcare podcasts than you might be about really technical things having to do with electronic health records, so if that's what draws you in, who cares what the topic is. It's drawing you in, and that is accomplishing the goal, or essentially, opening up the conversation.
So, Kaitlyn, you mentioned that the key is to have a good offer in these high-trafficked blogs. Let's go back to a couple of those blogs. You said you have a few that have gotten a lot of traffic. Have they also generated a lot of leads?
Kaitlyn:So, I actually look at it in two different ways. I look at the highest traffic-driving blogs, and I look at the highest-converting or contact-generating blogs. They don't necessarily have to be the same blog, so just because a blog is generating a lot of traffic doesn't mean it's going to be generating a lot of contacts, right, or at least qualified contacts, so I go with two different ways. If there's a blog that's driving a lot of traffic, we'll probably be promoting it and making its main goal to drive traffic. If there's a blog that's not driving so much traffic but it's generating a lot of contacts, its main goal might be to generate contacts, or we might want to look at it in a different way and say, well, why isn't it driving traffic? But, to your point, yes, every blog should have some type of relevant next step, whether it's an offer, or a demo, or to read another blog. Whatever it is, you want to make sure that you're keeping that person engaged on your site, and all the content you're offering to them is valuable and it makes sense, and it's relevant to what they're currently reading.
Kathleen:That's really what conversion rate optimization is all about, right? It's, let's take those high-converting pages and see if we can boost the traffic; let's take the high-traffic pages and see if we can boost the conversions, and playing with those individual results.
Kathleen:So, really interesting. So, what was the impact of all of these changes in terms of blogging less but focusing on taking a more strategic approach and historically optimizing some of these blogs, and trying to tweak the conversion rates and the traffic? What impact has that had in terms of the performance of the overall marketing program?
Kaitlyn:I get really excited when I talk about these numbers, so forgive me. But, when I first started working with ADS, I think monthly we were generating around 6,000, maybe a little bit more than 6,000 visits per month. This year, we've reached, I believe, 22,000 visits recently. In the last five or six months, we've beat our traffic goal every single month, and we've beaten the last month's traffic for the last five months in a row. This was mostly because we've been specifically focusing on SEO, organic contact generation, and making sure that we're creating and producing the content that people are looking for.
People always are impatient about inbound marketing, and they're always saying, "Well, I don't have the time. I want immediate results." That's fine. I'm sure there's a lot of inbound quick wins that you can do, but you also want to make sure that you're taking your time with things like this, and you're creating that inbound campaign or inbound strategy that's going to take you far in the long run. Four years ago, if you told me we were going to hit twenty-something thousand visits, I would have said, "You're crazy," and I know Stephen probably agrees, but we went from 6,000 to 23,000, and I think, maybe, 40 contacts a month to almost 350, and those are qualified contacts, so it really does work, especially if you put the right effort and the right strategy behind it.
Kathleen:Stephen, Kaitlyn talked about the visit and lead increases. I'm curious, from your perspective, when you get together with the powers that be in the company, how has that translated into ROI for the company?
Stephen:With Kaitlyn, our main goal is appointments, so that's really the number that we really shoot for, and I think the last six months, we're up, like, 92% in appointments.
Stephen:I can't get too much into revenue, but this year is, by far, the highest-revenue for website sales, so it's been a great year, and you could see with the way Kaitlyn describes our statistics, her passion, that's really, I think, the best thing about working with IMPACT is, they really care about the clients' success, so you can see that in the way she talks. When I give her the numbers at the end of the month, she's happier than I am.
Kathleen:I love that. So, this has obviously been really successful on a lot of fronts. You've seen dramatic increases in organic visitor traffic to your site, you've seen a big increase in leads, you've seen big increases in sales appointments. I love hearing that the increases have trickled down through the entire funnel for you. What would you both say made these efforts so successful? Because this isn't a specific campaign. This is the company's inbound marketing strategy as a whole. What do you think, for somebody listening to this podcast, what are the key takeaways and the lessons learned? What should people learn from your experience and apply to their own marketing to hopefully get those same kinds of results?
Kaitlyn:I think for my takeaway that I really think drove this home was keywords. I've done a lot of research into, why are keywords so important, and obviously people know that that's because that's what people are searching for, but it's a lot more than that. You want to know what they're searching for, definitely, but you want to make sure that your persona is the one searching for those, and you're not trying to rank for the wrong keywords. And, again, I've said it before, I think the common mistake a lot of people make is, they make a list of a hundred keywords and try to rank for all of them at the same time when, really, it doesn't have to be done that way.
I highly recommend creating a list every quarter, refreshing it, it could have the same keywords in it, that's completely fine, but a list of around 20 to 25 targeted keywords. Pay attention to how many monthly searches they're getting, what the difficulty index is, how your competitors are ranking for them, and really choose which ones would make the highest impact the quickest. Focus on ranking for those keywords first, and then work your way down the list. I think because we've started to do that, that's a huge reason in why we've seen our organic traffic account for almost 80% of our overall traffic.
Kathleen:That's great. Stephen, what about from your perspective? What, for you, have been the biggest takeaways or lessons learned from this?
Stephen:There's a lot that went into this, not just blogging but, like Kaitlyn said, the SEO, with the keywords, we did a lot of optimization on landing pages, our call to actions. One of the things we've done recently, too, is we've done user videos where we actually see people on the site, on the pages, how they react. We ask questions, so those have been helpful. We use heat maps. We have a really good plan. I think that's one of the best things. That's one of the things I really like, is that we have a 90-day plan that we go with, and then we have a monthly plan, and then a weekly sprint, so just being so organized has been very helpful on my end.
And, yeah, the SEO ... I mean, I've been here seven years, and I think some of the things that have really helped me, or the things I've learned is the importance of, like, a live chat on the website has been really helpful. Communicating with your sales team, both inside and outside sales if you have those. I get a lot of interesting feedback from them as far as what the target market, what questions are they asking, and I relay those to Kaitlyn, and we talk about that. The SEO is definitely, and the blogging has just been tremendous. It's taken us to a different level this year. I mean, if you told me this in January, the stats we've had, I just wouldn't believe it, and every month it gets better and better.
Kathleen:That's great. And, I guess what I'm hearing is, this is the difference between just blogging for the sake of blogging, and, kind of, the "if you build it, they will come" line of thinking to being really strategic and saying, every blog needs to count and getting the details right, that the difference in results is pretty amazing between those two approaches.
Anything that you wouldn't do or that you advise the listener, "Hey, learn from my mistakes, and don't do this same thing that I did."
Kaitlyn:Don't stop blogging. No, I won't say that, but I recommend you don't stop. I recommend that you try. If it's not working for you, or if you're not seeing results, try to change the way you're you're doing it, or find areas to improve, and make sure that you are putting that strategy behind every blog. It's not about quantity; it's not about pushing 15 blogs out a month. It's definitely about quality.
Kathleen:That makes sense. All right, well, I love the story, I love hearing the results. I'll share some of that in the show notes. Before we wrap up, I always like to ask people, first of all, and either one of you can take this question, who do you think is doing inbound marketing really well? And you can cite a company or an individual. If somebody's listening and wants to see an example of a best practice, where do you recommend they look?
Stephen:I like design, so I'm always getting my inspiration from more design-driven stuff, so, I mean, I like Zendesk's website.
Kaitlyn:I was just going to say, I think Databox, honestly, has been doing a really good job lately. I know we've been paying a little bit of attention to them. We use Databox here at IMPACT. I know they just launched a podcast. They blog pretty well, their email nurturing campaigns are pretty great, so I think that they're doing a really good job.
Kathleen:Yeah. The CEO over there is Pete Caputa who came from HubSpot, and he was a past guest of mine, and a really savvy marketer, so that's a great example. I couldn't agree more. In terms of staying at the cutting edge of marketing and getting inspiration, and ideas, and thinking about what the future holds, what do you think are good sources of information for a marketer who's interested in staying current?
Kaitlyn:I'm biased, but HubSpot and IMPACT. Honestly, I read our blog a lot. I'm not kidding. I think a couple resources outside of those two, obviously, I really like listening to the Marketing School podcast with Neil Patel and Eric Siu, I believe his last name is, and I really like listening to it because they have shorter episodes where I can listen to a couple on my way to work or on my way home, but in those short episodes, they give me a lot of value and some really good action items or take-away items, so I love listening to that podcast specifically. And then, obviously, places like Digital Marketer and inbound.org have great up-to-date articles and keep you in the loop on everything inbound or everything marketing. I think those are mine.
Kathleen:All right. Well, I'm sure that people are going to have questions because there's so much here in terms of the details that we weren't able to get into about how you guys did this and how you accomplished such big increases in traffic leads and sales. If somebody wanted to reach out to you, what's the best way to get in touch? Is it email, LinkedIn, Twitter? Stephen, I'll start with you.
Kathleen:I'll put that link in the show notes. Kaitlyn, how about you?
Kaitlyn:You can find me on LinkedIn. Please connect with me. I'd love to meet a lot of you, linkedin.com/in/kaitlynpetro, or you can shoot me an email: firstname.lastname@example.org.
Kathleen:Well, thank you both so much for joining me. This was really interesting, and I'm going to be including some of the details that you discussed, as well as links to some of those great blogs that ADS has done, into the show notes. Kaitlyn, I believe you're in the process of actually writing this up as a case study, correct?
Kathleen:So, hopefully, we'll have that to add in at some point for anybody who's interested in learning more, but for now, thank you to both of my guests, and thank you to everyone who is listening. If you enjoyed this, we'd love it if you would review the podcast on iTunes, Stitcher, SoundCloud, wherever you happen to listen to us. It really helps. And if you know any marketers getting amazing results from inbound marketing, please tweet me @WorkMommyWork, and let me know so that I can reach out to them and make them the next interview. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time.
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