What does it take to build a thriving online community?
This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, host Kathleen Booth talks with Gianna Whitford, Aileen Casmano, and Maria Velasquez — the founders of the Cybersecurity Marketing Society.
Gianna, Aileen and Maria created "the society" (as they call it) just a few months ago and in that short time, membership has grown dramatically and they are now putting on the first-ever CyberMarketing Con, a week long conference for cybersecurity marketers.
From how they built their rapidly growing Slack community, to what they're doing to make membership in the community a valuable experience that keeps members engaged, Gianna, Aileen and Maria share all the details behind the Cybersecurity Marketing Society's successful launch.
Listen in to learn what they did, and how you, too, can create a thriving online community that creates brand advocacy.
Aileen, Kathleen, Gianna and Maria recording this episode
Kathleen (00:05): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm your host Kathleen Booth. And today I have my first ever episode with three guests. Three is better than one that's for sure. So this week my guests are Aileen Casmano, Gianna Whitford, and Maria Velasquez of the cybersecurity marketing society. Welcome ladies.
Maria (00:37): Thank you.
Aileen (00:38): Thanks for having us.
Kathleen (00:39): Yeah, I'm excited to have you here. This should be a lot of fun. And for those listening, the reason that I have three guests is that the, the three of them are the cofounders of the cybersecurity marketing society, which is an awesome community that I'm a member of that is on Slack, but that has a whole lot of other things going on. So we're going to talk about all of that in a minute. And we're going to talk about building community and what that can do for your brand and your business and, and other things.
Kathleen (01:08): But in the meantime, let's start out by having each of you do a quick introduction of yourself and who you are and where you work and, and anything else you, you decide you want to add. And we'll go in the reverse order from which I introduced you. So we'll start with Maria.
Maria (01:23): Awesome. So Maria Velasquez, I am currently the head of marketing at Unibuddy, which is an ed tech company, helping universities connect with prospective students via various tools and widgets and virtual event platforms and that sort of thing. And previously, I spent a few years in cybersecurity marketing, which is why I am part of this today. Except, you know, even though I moved to EdTech, half of my heart is still in cybersecurity. And so we're happy to be here.
Kathleen (01:56): Awesome. Gianna.
Gianna (01:59): I am Gianna Whitford dialing in from sunny, beautiful Tampa, Florida.
Gianna (02:06): I'm a cybersecurity marketing consultant and one of the cofounders of the cybersecurity marketing society. Previously, I worked at a threat intelligence company.
Kathleen (02:16): Awesome. And Aileen.
Aileen (02:18): I'm Aileen, and I work at Owl Cyber Defense. And I work as the integrated marketing manager, but basically do all of our outbound stuff, advertising, social email campaigns, all that fun stuff that we all love so dearly.
Kathleen (02:37): Alright. So I guess this is such an interesting scenario here because I've had people come on and talk about community on the podcast in the past, but they've always been like the in house marketer at an organization that wanted to build a community for itself. This is interesting because the three of you come from different places and you're this community for reasons outside of work. So I guess let's start out by talking about why did you create this and what the heck were you thinking giving yourself more work outside of your day to day jobs?
Gianna (03:12): Yeah, so I can kind of take a stab at this one. So basically the idea for the society, the cybersecurity marketing society, we call it the society, you know, exclusive, came from when I joined my first, I was creating a company as a marketer. So I had previously worked in big tech and real estate and all these different industries in a marketing role. And, you know, I thought that marketing in cybersecurity would be pretty much the same, but learned quickly that it is a completely different animal and totally different beast. There's a lot of complexities with the product. The audience is different, incredibly different. And so right off the bat joining this company that I first joined, I had wanted to find resources and information, other marketers to kind of reach out to and say, Hey, I'm new to cyber security marketing.
Gianna (04:16): Can you lend me a helping hand? Can you share, what's worked for you. And so a couple of years later I was just like kind of brainstorming with my friend Maria here catching up on a call and had said, Hey, wouldn't it. We were both like talking. It was like, Hey, wouldn't it be great if this thing that has always been an issue for every new marketer entering into the cybersecurity field? Like what if there was a resource there? What if there was a community? Like we all have this informal network of other marketers that we reach out to, peer mentors, essentially, that we ask for advice. Why don't we make this so that other people can access it too? And so Maria had worked with Aileen at Owl Cyber Defense and we all got together and that is sort of the the origin story of the society.
Kathleen (05:07): I love it. And it's so funny because, you know, I'm, I've been working in cyber, in house, about a year now. And before that I advised cyber companies when I had my agency. But I always thought the same thing. Like how come there's not a group that I can join? And then you guys created it, which is why I was so excited about it. So, so describe the society to me because there is a Slack group, but it's more than just a Slack group. You have some other things going on. So can you talk about like the different aspects of what you do and how you've built the community?
Maria (05:43): Do you want me to take this one? So, I mean, from the beginning, we knew that we needed to generate a lot of content and we needed to make sure that we were consistent with it to keep members engaged in and really happy with being part of the community.
Maria (05:59): I think you and I talked about this Kathleen, once about keeping the momentum and not letting it die out. So we were just really thinking outside the box and figuring out, well, there's a lot of zoom fatigue out there. What else can we do that is a little bit different, but still would engage people and get them to register and come on and join the conversation? So one of the things that we started doing off the bat are these happy hours on Fridays. And we try to manage to do them every other week, if not sometimes every three weeks, but we call them cyber beers and tears. And the requirement is that you bring a beer or some sort of other drink of choice, and we just talk and it's, it's usually smaller than, than a webinar.
Maria (06:41): And everyone talks about what they do, or we can talk about something other than work. So it's, it's really fun. And then most recently we did a couple of days and we're calling them fireside chats and they're very interactive laid back Q and A type sessions. And it's usually about one topic. And we bring on a couple of our members actually joined one time. We had someone else that was an expert in marketing operations joined, which was a really good session to a lot of questions and a lot of distraction in the chat. And those are really fun. And then the big beast that's coming up soon, which is the cybersecurity marketing conference and that's our inaugural conference. And we're so excited about that. It started off with a fun idea that Gianna came up with and now we're 15 sessions plus Gianna I don't know, correct me if I'm wrong, you have the latest numbers, some amazing speakers one of which is you Kathleen. I thank you for that. Thank you for participating. And yeah, we're really excited about it. I think people, like you said, we needed something like this, and that's the reason why this has taken off the reason why members are so excited. And we've gotten so many signups from the conference and people waiting 40 sessions to, to, to kick off.
Kathleen (07:57): Are you cursing yourselves yet? Because I feel like every time I'm involved in planning an event, it always seems like an awesome idea. And then the closer you get to it, the more you're like, what was I thinking?
Gianna (08:09): We, we knew that. So at least we knew that it was kind of having not, I don't want to say a, make it or break it the conference because we're bigger than just a conference, right? We're a community, we're a society where group, we are interacting almost on a daily basis with other members. We have our fireside chats. We have our other ways that we interact and connect. But this conference was kind of put together in order to show the cybersecurity marketing society to the world, as well as help all of our members and produce something, you know, with love almost like for them. So yes, totally. I think all of us are, are maybe kicking ourselves a little,
Kathleen (08:57): But then I always, and this is maybe this is a terrible joke. I don't know. It's not even really a joke, but I truly have always thought of like running big events, almost like having children. You're like, Oh, I really want to have a baby. And then you get pregnant and the closer you get to your due date, you're like, this is terrible. What was I thinking? And then you have the baby and it's hard for a little bit, but then you're like, let's do it again. I haven't had to have my own. Yes. That's just my own personal outlook on it. But so, so in addition, so you have this community on Slack, you have a website, you have these fireside chats, these happy hours, you've got a conference, you also have a newsletter and you guys write blogs. Like how on earth are you finding all the time for this? Because you all have regular jobs. Maybe I'll have Aileen take this one.
Aileen (09:47): Sure. late nights, I know that's when I work on stuff. And Gianna specifically has been the one that has been sort of leading the pack with getting the most done. And we're so thankful for her. And then I think Maria and I try to find time after hours, usually texting at 11:00 PM, Hey, check out the newsletter, give some edits. So we're really just doing our best to, you know, we're, we're all super passionate about it. So when you're passionate about something, you find the time to get it done. And I don't know if you guys want to add anything. That's how I feel.
Maria (10:31): Yeah. A lot of late nights, once the little monsters are asleep, back on the computer and get a few things done. If you love it. I don't mind. I don't, to be honest, I don't mind the extra hours, the extra effort if you like it.
Aileen (10:40): I think what's so like what keeps us going too, is we see the benefits our members are getting out of it, like the peer to peer, like advice. And just like, if you have a question, I feel like there's always someone in the society that can answer it. And so it was like, you know, that saying, there's not for that. It's like, there's someone, there's a number for that. So I think that's what keeps us, you know, just so motivated is that we're seeing, this is actually helping people solve their problems and we're not, you know, there's nothing being pushed down. Anyone's throat. It's like you come in, you ask a question, are you engaged with it? It's just helping you to be better at your job.
Gianna (11:27): I'd add one more thing in that. Yeah, exactly. Aileen, your last, your last point there is that because this is a group focused around cybersecurity marketing and all of us are cybersecurity marketers or lead marketers. It's not like we had exactly to learn like an entirely new thing. You know, we built a community around ourselves kind of. So all the skills are there. The network is there, which also makes it easy. I'm glad this isn't, I'm glad we didn't start a group about like, I don't know, vegetable farming. Because that would be really hard. So cybersecurity marketing, at least we have an idea of.
Kathleen (12:06): So I've, I think hopefully people have a good sense of what the organization is and kind of some of the activities it does and who it's for and what it entails. What I would love to talk about now is your thoughts on an advice really for anybody else considering creating a community? Because I know I'm a member of a lot of communities and especially a lot of communities on Slack, probably like 20, but there's only a couple that I focus on because otherwise it's just too much and I can't do it all, but also not all of them deliver value. And so I would love to hear your thoughts on how do you structure the community in a way so that it really does deliver value to the people that are members and it encourages them to be active participants.
Aileen (13:01): I can start off. I think something two things we've done, right. One is, early on we just sort of reached out to people that we know in our network and said, we have this idea, what do you think of it? Would this be something you'd join? And that intrigued people and we sort of, you know, took that further and told them our idea. And they were like, yeah, I'd support you. And you know, our first call, our first cyber beers, I think we had around like 10 people. And the sentiment was like, everyone was like, all right, when's the next one? So it was sort of like, I like beta test group. And then we went on to like create the Slack. And I think what we're doing, why it's working is we're letting members drive, drive the conversation where we're letting them drive what they want to get out of it and what they want to put into it too. So people, you know, anyone can write in a channel, we had people request channels like, Hey, I want one on personas or I want one on podcasting. And we're just like listening to our members and giving them the avenues to just grow.
Gianna (14:11): I would also add we have instituted a couple of rules. You've seen them. A couple of rules to keep the community high quality as we scale. We're not, there's a thing called tragedy of the commons where things get too big and then they kind of get diluted in terms of quality. And we're trying really hard not to let that happen. We, that everybody who comes in to make sure that they're actually a cybersecurity marketer and not there to, for example, sell services.
Kathleen (14:44): We had that conversation early on. I'll never forget. Cause you guys asked, should we let vendors in? So, and I, that, it sounds like the decision was no.
Gianna (14:53): Exactly. And so that points directly also to Aileen's point there, is that we ask our members like how they'd like to see this shaped. And then, and then again on the, on the rules side of things, you know, pretty standard rules that we enforce as well as we can you know, standard rules and communities to ensure that everybody's respectful, everyone's polite. We don't allow people to be anonymous, which I think is a problem in online communities. When you're anonymous, you can be kind of you know, we've all seen it with Reddit and other social communities like that. You can, things can get a little nasty. So we make sure that everybody is a marketer. We started with a trusted base of people that we respect and like, and know are great. We have these rules and generally I think that creates a great environment. Maria, what would you like to add?
Maria (15:41): Yeah, no, I absolutely agree with both of you. I think also just keeping it authentic because at the end of the day, we're all just marketers alike and no matter our levels, right? In experience in cybersecurity marketing, we just come together and in this, we're sort of leveling the playing field a little bit and we're just coming together just to help each other. And nobody's there to outshine anyone. And it's been great. It's been actually really just a natural thing that's happening where everyone's just helpful, really kind and always, you know, raising their hands to provide and share the secret sauce of what's something that's worked for them. And I like that. And I think that that's because we put a lot of work in making sure that we put ourselves out there, people really know who Gianna, Maria and Aileen are. It encourages other people do really just break that barrier and to say, I'm here. I don't know much about SEO. I'd love to learn. Like that kind of thing.
Kathleen (16:41): Yeah, that's great. And then one of the things I've noticed or observed is that you have a really nice, very organized and very defined process for onboarding members. And so maybe you could talk a little bit about what that process is like and, and, and how it gets executed.
Maria (17:02): Yeah, that's Gianna. We're going to point to Gianna's corner.
Gianna (17:05): It's funny. Cause we're on a zoom and you're pointing, you're all pointing in like, different directions.
Kathleen (17:10): Right. It's like the Brady bunch only, everyone's seeing a different layout.
Gianna (17:14): Yeah, exactly. So the onboarding process is first through a form. So we have everybody who wants to join, apply on the website. They have the request to join. They fill out a type form and then we review the type form and I check their LinkedIn and make sure they're, they're who they say they are. And then I sent you send out an email invite to them to come into the Slack. And then we have a, it's not a welcome bot. It's me. You guys might think it's a bot, but it's actually, I go in, and, and personally, every
Gianna (17:50): Single person that comes in, I invite them to read our community rules. And I also invite them to share a little bit about themselves because along with being marketers where people and part of the society is is, is a networking group, you know, and I think in our rules we say you know, we want to network, share, solve problems, but also come out with some great new friends. So we invite people to share also a couple of fun facts about themselves in order to make sure it's not just like I work in threat intelligence. And like, that's it.
Kathleen (18:21): Two of the things I really like about the onboarding process. Again, I'm a member of a lot of Slack groups. And so I've had that, the benefit of being able to like, see how this plays out in different ways, both good and bad, two things I really like about what you guys do is you do in the welcome, as you said, are you linked to the community rules?
Kathleen (18:39): And you actually say, when you introduce yourself, please acknowledge that you have read them, which gets people to have to affirmatively say, I have looked at this, which is really smart. And then you also ask people to put their company name in their Slack public user profile name. And I find that really helpful because, you know, if somebody, if you're having a conversation with somebody we're all in there, because we're in the same industry, you know, and it's, it's nice to be able if somebody says, well, my company we're doing X instead of having to like, then go search LinkedIn for that person to be like, what's the context here? You know, you immediately kind of know, Oh, this person's from a big company or a small company, or they're a service company or a product or whatever. Like that context to me is incredibly helpful. And it's interesting to me that more select groups don't do that because I think it, it really adds to the conversation a lot. So let's talk about how you have grown the membership base, because that's been interesting also to me to watch. I think I came in pretty early and it's really seems to be heating up in terms of the pace of people coming in.
Maria (19:51): I think you came in at what? Five, no, you were number five. You would definitely one of the first 10.
Kathleen (19:55): I don't know!
Maria (20:01): Well I can take the start of this one. We put our sales hat on and our BizDev hat on very early on. And we went on LinkedIn and network and did a lot of outreach, a lot of cold outreach. And in, in the beginning it was, it was a lot. And then I think it just, it got to a point where people were starting to invite other people. And it actually took a while for some early members that, that have a big team of other cybersecurity marketers. It took a while for them to invite their team on. They kind of wanted to get a feel of what this is about before I invite my team. I want to make sure this is the right kind of environment. And once we proved that it was a really good environment that the team can actually learn a lot from then we saw everybody,
Maria (20:48): You know, inviting their coworkers and colleagues. So yeah, in the beginning it took a lot of biz dev and sales work and outreach. I'm not gonna call it sales. It's just outreach, just a little bit of brand awareness. And then, and then after that, it just took off on its own. Which, you know, I think there's still a lot to do, you know, in terms of growing it. But we like that there is organic growth because we could see that there is interest there in intent.
Kathleen (21:15): And you all have a website and I've joined some Slack groups where literally you get a link and it sends you to just a page with a, enter your email here to join. How much do you think the website has helped or, or do you like, do you send people there when they're interested in joining and do you think that's made a big difference?
Gianna (21:36): We try to send people there. We have, it's an interesting, because like that is the best path into the society because we vet people cause it's easy. People fill out a questionnaire, we know everything, not everything about them. We're not the government.
Kathleen (21:55): You never know, it is cybersecurity. We have hackers doing your background check.
Gianna (22:01): Exactly. That's the best in the first pass forward. But we started to see like various sad people started inviting people in to the society via just like Slack invite, like without, even without asking us which we were not offended by. So people still do that. Although we direct people to the website because the website's the best way to both like, let people sign up for the newsletter and also double check that there they are, who they are, who they say they are and all of that.
Maria (22:37): But they still need our approval, even if they invite through Slack and we get to see, you know, who they are. And a lot of times if it's the same domain name and we know it's the same company, then it, then it's kind of okay and it gets in like that.
Aileen (22:46): I think also, I mean, the first thing I do as a consumer is if I want to know about a brand, I go to their website. So I think it's important to just have a face for the society. And like people know that if it's serious and it's legitimate and you know, it's definitely a growing brand and it's, there's purpose behind that. So we have nice, like good info on there that people can read before they actually join.
Kathleen (23:15): So let's talk about the event. When is it happening? Give us some details.
Gianna (23:27): So the it's called cyber marketing con 2020 and it's happening completely virtually September 21st through the 25th with the main sessions held the 21st through the 24th and then an after party held in the afternoon of the 25th.
Kathleen (23:46): I love that you guys are doing an after party. I just think that's awesome.
Gianna (23:52): Yeah. We're hoping that people bring what's coming out of their swag bags to the after party. Yeah. We're doing swag bags. We, you know, it's, it's like we, we got a sponsor to do the swag, which is really, really the way that we could afford to do it. But we still wanted to make that connection to our members. Again, this is a member driven organization. Everything we do is in the interest of other cybersecurity marketers. And we're hoping that this helps, you know, being everything, being virtual it's like sometimes it's almost like not real. And we're hoping to create, we were hoping to create like a physical connection to our membership. Does that make sense? That's not too woo woo.
Kathleen (24:40): No, it's, I think you make a great point. And I should say just to put some context around this, at least right now, there's no cost to join the group. Yeah, you guys are all just putting in sweat equity at this point. What is the cost to attend the event?
Gianna (25:02): Tickets for the conference are currently $50 and they'll go up to $75. I think it's September 12th. So we're doing it South by Southwest style, discounted all the way up until the full price. And the event is chock full of sessions that are, are with wait, sorry, are, were, you know, I'm biased, but it was way more than what the ticket price is. We're going to have 15 plus sessions on all sorts of topics. I'm sorry, ten plus sessions on all sorts of topics. SEO demand gen, PR, partnerships, and all these sort of like things that you may not get as a cybersecurity market just inside your own organization.
Kathleen (25:45): Yeah. I mean, that's an amazing deal for an event that's going to spend multiple days. I'm just going to say that like it is, it's very cheap. Not cheap. That's the wrong word. I hate the word cheap. It's it's very reasonably priced.
Aileen (26:00): For attendees, if their company does any sort of personal development, reimbursement, not a huge reimbursement cost. So we get into that.
Kathleen (26:10): Basically like the cost for lunch out for two people, but you get a lot more value out of it. And if somebody wants to learn more about the event, where should they go?
Aileen (26:24): Yeah, we have a Hey Summit page. It's cybermarketingcon2020.hey,summit.com. And then you can also get there through the cyber marketing con spread through the society website. So cybersecuritymarketingsociety.com.
Kathleen (26:38): That's awesome. And I just side note, Hey Summit is the best if you're running a virtual event. I did my virtual event on that in July, and I couldn't believe that all I had to do was set the event up and then it did all like the email reminders and the speaker portal. I was like, Whoa, this is unbelievable. And it's not expensive. So if you're putting on a virtual event, small side plug for Hey Summit.
Maria (27:00): It's like having a part time event manager.
Kathleen (27:05): It really is. It's pretty unbelievable that they don't charge more for it. I shouldn't probably say that because then maybe they'll raise their prices, but it's a good deal. I won't tag them when I promote this post.
Kathleen (27:21): Awesome. All right. Well we are getting to that point in the podcast where we shift gears and I ask you guys the same questions that I ask all of my guests. So the first question is this podcast is all about inbound marketing. So I'm going to let each of you answer this separately. Is there a particular company or a specific individual who you think is really doing inbound marketing well right now who's a good example for listeners to check out online? And we'll go in the other order. So this time Aileen first.
Aileen (27:53): Okay. Well I'm not just saying this to say it, but I think IMPACT does an awesome job and I look at them a lot for best practices. I've attended their conferences in the past. I read They Ask, You Answer. And a specific individual. I, I honestly just try to leverage like who I'm connected to on LinkedIn and just get like peer to peer advice. I would say that's the best, the best way for me and people are always willing to share their, like their secret sauce or their way of doing things. And then you can sort of learn how to apply it back to your, your business or your strategy.
Kathleen (28:37): Awesome. Gianna, how about you?
Gianna (28:41): So I'm also going to say IMPACT and then for companies that I think are doing good inbound, I'm going to go off a little off the beaten track and say Afford Anything, which is a personal finance book run by Paula Pant is really good. It's a little bit of a personal finance book on the side, and I really enjoyed like the in depth articles that she produced on, for example, like real estate investing and stuff. So she's one of my favorite inbound marketers. And then of course you, Kathleen. The content you're producing. I have to honestly say that.
Kathleen (29:24): How about you, Maria?
Maria (29:26): Gosh, I would definitely second you Kathleen, because I mean, I've been following you for quite a while. I think I might've even stalked you, but I'm surprised you're here inviting me to your podcast.
Maria (29:42): I don't have just one favorite. So I love, and this is actually a CEO, but I love what David Cancel of Drift does. And he's the CEO and I'm a huge fan of any brand whose CEO is out there on social who's out there really putting content out and building the brand. So that definitely. I love Chris Walker from Refine Labs. His LinkedIn videos are amazing.
Kathleen (30:12): He's a machine. I don't know how he does it.
Maria (30:16): They bring so much value, so much good content to the point that I actually, it inspired something I'm doing at Unibuddy and I'm getting my sales team to do which we're calling higher ed hot minute. And so we think one topic for a quick minute and they get on video wherever they are. I don't care if they're in their backyard, just do it. And then I take it and put it in a nice frame and put the transcription in the bottom and we put it out there and it's been great. So I love what Chris is doing. So shout out to Refine Labs. And then the last one is Dave Gerhardt, which he's now at Privy. And I think he was at Drift. I love his, his posts. Lots of wisdom in his posts for sure. And the amount of engagement he gets on his posts is amazing. I'm so jealous. I need to, I need to ask him the secret sauce.
Kathleen (31:05): The secret sauce for Dave Gerhardt is he's been doing it for a really long time and super consistently. You know, it's funny because I interviewed him way back when I first started the podcast and I'm now like almost on episode 160 and back then he was already like, he already was in that position of having a lot of engagement and it's literally just he, and he said this to me once. Like he doesn't overthink it. He doesn't like plan out these big posts. He just, if he thinks of something, he puts it on LinkedIn. He just puts it out there. And you know, it's, it's literally almost stream of consciousness in some regards. And you'll, you can see that because early on, he used to do a lot of videos and now, and then he was doing like longer written posts and now it's just like a sentence. Its just on the fly.
Maria (31:52): He gets ts 5,000 views and I'm like, Oh my God.
Kathleen (31:54): But you know, it's funny. I feel like this is one of the biggest things I've learned doing podcast interviews over these past three years is, it's a lot like exercise. Like nobody wants to hear this, but it is totally just like consistency, like sticking with it over time and you know, not taking those days off. I have a problem with that in marketing and in exercise.
Gianna (32:19): My favorite quote is Calvin Coolidge's nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
Gianna (32:26): Like everybody listening, look it up. It's my well, you don't have to, but it's my favorite quote and it ends with this.
Gianna (32:32): Determination alone are omnipotent or omnipotent the slogan press on his salt and will always solve the problems with human race.
Gianna (32:40): Everything is about just doing it.
Kathleen (32:42): Yeah. It's so true. Well I feel like that's just a great kind of way to start to wrap it up. So thank you guys for sharing all of your wisdom about community building and where the society is going and the information on the event. So once more for everybody listening, if you want to learn about the society you go to where?
Kathleen (33:12): And if, and if you want to learn about the event or register, you can go to that website and hit the link for the event. Awesome. All right. And if people want to connect with the three of you online, what's the best way to do that?
Maria (33:28): We have a LinkedIn page for the society and you can find us through there. Or you can just go on our website. I think there is a few blog posts with our name on it. I'm not sure if we linked to our LinkedIn pages, but there's definitely numerous ways you can find it.
Kathleen (33:45): And I can put those links in the show notes too, so that everybody can find you guys. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining me this week and if you're listening and you enjoyed this episode, I would love it if you would head to Apple podcasts and leave the podcast, a preferably five star review so that others can find us. And if you know somebody else who's doing awesome marketing work, please tweet me at @workmommywork because I would love to make them my next guest. That's it for this week. Thank you so much to Gianna, Maria and Aileen.
Gianna, Maria and Aileen (34:17): Thanks Kathleen. Thank you. Thank you, Kathleen.
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